Two points:

One, it is not "Christians" who have a problem with evolution. All the major Christian churches accept and support the teaching of evolution. It is so-called fundamentalists from both Christianity and Islam that believe in "Creationism". Note that Judaism and Hinduism have different religious principles and fundamentalists of those religions are more open to evolution.

Two, if G-d indeed created each species individually, including man, He must be a very bad engineer and designer. But a god who is a bad engineer and designer is incompatible with the usual view of the all-powerful all-knowing god of Abrahamic religions.

I've been on vacation (away from home, work and computer) and am just now getting caught up reading some of the comments....

ICECIRO POSTS:

Iceciro,

"Evolution",  in that man descended from apes, is 100% incompatible with the Creation according to Genesis. I tried to explain that in my post 12. First it must be noted there are 2 working definitions of "evolution"....Christians believe in "evolution" as in small genetic variation within definite limits of genera (kind), species or families ....we see this in all the varieties of birds, dogs, horses, bees, etc. God created the initial "kind" of plant, animal or sea creature and over time secondary causes they changed into all the different variations that are here today.....this "micro evolution" is real science...and is in no sense at variance or incompatible with the Scriptural account of Creation or Christianity. 

The 2nd definition of Evolution was developed from Darwin's work in the 1800s. His pseudo-scientist followers theorize all plant, animal and human life, INCLUDING MANKIND, as coming from a simple cell that "evolved" according to a natural series of descent. It was given an anti or no God twist and has now become a worldview, a philosophy, an ideology.  To date, Evolutionists have provided not one scintilla of proof, no physical or empirical evidence of "evolutionary" crossover of one species into a different one..with different DNA...I'm talking specifically about man's supposed descent from apes.

Special Creation, Christianity and certainly the Catholic Church all teach man is  composed  of body and soul. His soul cannot owe its existence to Evolution for it's a simple spirtual essence which makes us stand very far apart from animals. It is by our soul that we are made in the image and likeness of God and it is our soul which is the immortal part of us. It can therefore only come to us by way of God Himself.  

OCK POSTS:

OCK,

Quite feasible? I don't think so especially since science itself (Pasteur, I believe) has already discredited spontaneous generation of life.

Apart from God, before Creation, there was nothing. God willed and there was something..thus created beings began. It say so in Genesis and again in 11Machabees 7:28. God said this is how all things began, and He must know. 

Have you ever heard of the axiom, "out of nothing, nothing can come"?  Nothing could never become somthing. Nothing has nothing to work upon and no faculties with which to operate. We are therefore forced to admit an Eternal God, a FIrst Cause, a Lawmaker.

leauki posts:

You keep saying this and it doesn't make any sense....

What do you mean "if"? While Genesis doesn't tells in the scientific sense, it does tell us that an All Wise and All Powerful Creator God did indeed create each species (kind) individually, including man. The world and everything in it was made for the glory of God. At the end of every creation day, Genesis 1:10, 12, 18, 21, 25, and 31 has it that "and God saw that it was good" and in v. 31, "very good".

Scripture also tells us that all things are made of Him, through Him and in Him....which means all things derive their being from God's activity....that they are preserved by His continued providence and exist in His immense omnipresence. There is no way possible that God was a bad engineer and designer. Without His sustaining "hand", everythhing would lapse into its original nothingness...

The Creator is either perfect or He created us. He cannot be both, because we are not perfect creatures.

One of my previous articles on Creationism has a list of major design flaws in human beings. You might want to check there.

God is both All Perfect and He created us.....God is Creator and we are the created....infinite difference in all respects.

The Incompetent Engineer.

Your god. Not mine.

LULA POSTS:

LEAUKI POSTS:

Being Infinite, God has everything in Himself which by His mere fiat comes into being. So, out of God Himself came the designs of the universe and all that's in it, including mankind.

God said, "Be light made, And light was made" Gen. 1:3

God said, "Let there be a firmament --Waters. And it was so." 5:6-7

God said, "Let the land appear. And it was done." 5:9

God said, "Let the earth bring forth the green herb --And it was done." 5:11

Psalm 148:1-5  "Praise the Lord, O sun and moon, praise Him all ye stars and light. ......for He spoke and they were made; He commanded and they were created."

God created all His designs out of nothing. This is a great mystery that can only really be glanced at by our limited minds. Man makes things and is dependent upon God's created materials to give them objective reality. Man works, God wills. God's creating is recorded in Genesis 3 times, v. 1, 21, 27.

This is God and being Pure Spirit cannot be weighed in a pysicist's scale, or analyzed in a test tube any more than can faith, hope and charity in Him.

You say:

My God is The Incompetent Engineer. I say, hang in there.... The discoveries of scientists lead more and more to the realization of His Creative Power and can only be accounted for by belief in an Intelligent Designer, God.

Here is a quote from a NYTimes article, back in 1930 which is relevant today....(italics is my addition)

"What do you mean by light? A beem of light comes speeding from a star, travelling hundreds of years and finally it reaches our optic nerve and you see the star. How does it do that? (Can Cosmic Evolution ever explain?)  We have our corpuscular theory of light, our wave theory and now our quantum theory, our wave theory, and now our quantum theory, but they are all just educated guesses. About as good an explanation as nay is to say that light travels by the will of God."  

No, I don't. I say that _your_ god is an incompetent engineer. I base that statement on your description of his work.

_My_ god, the Eternal One, who is incorporeal and Who created us in His image (which means we don't look like Him but share with Him some of the attributes He actually has), did NOT engineer us imperfect beings, He took what his perfect universe produced on this imperfect planet and promoted it to a status we don't deserve. That was His gift to us.

And it is my belief that we should appreciate and be thankful for this gift, not promote belief in a false god that creates imperfect beings and shows neither compassion nor mercy to those "designed" or "created" with built-in diseases.

You and I apparently do not believe in the same god.

I live in Ireland, a very Catholic country, and whenever I talk about G-d with colleagues and friends, whenever I read what the Catholic Church writes about G-d and evolution, it is clear that they, most Irish Catholics, and I believe in the same god (and disagree only about the nature of the deity, not His love for us or His perfection).

But you and I disagree not only about the nature of G-d, but also about His abilities, His love for us, and His tolerance for our imperfection.

Clearly, we don't believe in the same god.

Whether you and I believe in the true god, if there is only one, will remain a matter of debate.

We can debate.

Leauki posts: #20

I believe in God Who is "I AM WHO AM" of Exodus 3:14. It is the term Christ designated Himself when He told the Jews of His existence before Abraham was born, who had died 20 centuries previous to that occasion. "I AM WHO AM" is the most exact and comprehensive name of God, Eternal, Self Existent, Infinite, without beginning and without end, or change, and the source of all other beings. You might be correct in saying we don't believe in the same God because the "I AM WHO AM" of Exodus does not fit what you wrote above especialy the part I highlighted.

One of my best friends and mentor, a man in his mid 80s, is now travelling in Ireland, his home country. He delights in attending Catholic Mass there. Last I heard, Ireland has held firm in rejecting abortion and staying away from the EU...is that correct?  

Actually, I AM WHO I AM fits perfectly with the parts you highlighted. But it doesn't fit with a god who is a terrible designer. If there is only one god then surely that god must be perfect as a designer and good.

But your god, you claim, created, personally, human beings who come with terrible design faults. Your god is either a bad designer or evil (or both).

My god is perfect and good. Your god is not.

Most of Europe rejects abortions. Some countries reject them totally, some reject them after the first trimester (most notably Germany).

Ireland has been a member of the EU since the 70s and we use the Euro currency.

Catholic mass in Ireland is an experience he wouldn't want to miss.

But understand that Ireland teaches evolution and that the Catholic Church, who own most of the public schools here, is at the forefront of doing so. The Protestant Church of Ireland, who own most of the remaining public schools, also teaches evolution. I live in a Protestant neighbourhood, but there is a Catholic school down the road.

Ireland is very Catholic and Irish Catholicism is a part of this country.

But it bears almost no similarity to the religion you apparently follow, which, to me, seems closer to American evangelicalism except without the love for G-d's chosen people and the openness for research.

In Ireland Catholicism is a symbol of standing up against the establishment and of preserving one's heritage.

And it is so much a part of Irish culture that it is being made fun of. (This is from Ireland's favourite television show.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkz_QE38pw

Many people outside Ireland don't find it funny. But Irish Catholics do.

More Ted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T5snc_LYSY

Warning: seriously bad language, including _two_ distinct "f"-words!